Thanks for sharing your article via your note to mine (https://www.carermentor.com/p/how-are-emotions-made). I appreciate the way you've reframed anger here using Dr Barrett's work and proposed forgiveness as its antidote.
If I may, I would reframe your question—'Should emotions be managed?' This implies an expectation, a standard, and a 'hustling' to compartmentalise or shift it. I could almost hear someone saying 'I hate being managed.'
Instead, to paraphrase the work of Dr Susan David and Dr Brené Brown, I'd ask - Can we gently hold ourselves with the emotion, show up to it and make space for it?
Can we be granular and articulate to ourselves what's going on? Every feeling (chemically) lasts around 30-90 seconds in our body - stepping out to breathe through it, can help us get out of the emotional loop.
Then, we may be able to choose our response to navigate through and forward.
I say this knowing we can't always 'catch ourselves' in the moment of big emotions, but I've learnt that it serves me as an aspiration. It also helps me feel I have more agency, and while I can't 'control' or manage how I feel, I can recognise these emotional signposts as data and try to align with my values in my choice of action & move on. My favourite quote that says all this more succinctly!
'Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.'- Viktor E. Frankl
Beautiful! I think the frame of “anger management” only applies when things get really dicey. Otherwise, I’d prefer to find ways to embrace what anger is trying to show me and tend to the anger with love and care. This doesn’t mean fanning anger’s flames. It’s about caring for what’s wounded. And it’s really only possible when there’s the spaciousness you point to of Frankl’s quote.
This was a super interesting and thought-provoking read. It really is true that the physiological reactions can sometimes be the egg that hatches the chicken of increased emotional response. Thank you for this!
The connection between emotions and predictive models is intriguing. I appreciate your openness to various approaches in dealing with anger. Looking forward to your upcoming posts on this fascinating subject!
Internal Family Systems (IFS) frames emotions like anger as reactions a part of us has when an event/interaction either reminds us of a past injury or is perceived as a threat. The part that is angry seeks to protect us from harm, internally or externally. In IFS we are asked to turn toward the anger to see what's going on, not to dismiss it, push it away or gaslight it. Your last paragraph-- your search for a more organic relationship to anger-- made me wonder if IFS might have something to say about forgiveness as well.
Thank you so much for sharing your "not so random" thoughts. Always very interesting, truthful and thought provoking. I look forward to the next installment!
Yes, I know Glennon Doyle was talking about this as well—but although it’s meaningful, and I think it’s a step in the right direction, I think there are still problems.
Both forgiveness and mercy have a kind of hierarchy built into them. In this way, mercy is similar to unconditional forgiveness. Or even, mercy is forgiveness when the conditions for forgiveness have clearly NOT been met—and yet forgiveness is still “granted.” That’s true mercy.
The whole paradigm feels “off” to me. More on this to come in posts.
😊 You anticipated where I’m going. IFS is one of the two approaches I’ll be writing about next. I expect that will complete my exploration of psychological insights into anger (for now). Next stop will be religion.
Forgiveness as an antidote to anger?? Is anger that tightly focused, such that a particular forgiving vow can extinguish it? I say "vow" because forgiving thoughts can come and go, and thus what you're attempting to counteract; surely returns. Actually, in some people anger is general. It is the preferred go-to emotion, a panacea for every occasion. Its use is to push everyone away, in that I'm forever fearful of my boundary issues, so I am anti-social. I have jettisoned all interpersonal skills. So where would forgiveness enter the formula there?
Forgiveness is actually the antidote to blame. That is more tightly focused. But you don't forgive blame, you just stop blaming. (Well, I can't stop; everybody saw him do it!) Well, that is the trick to defuse anger, if you can master it. You must tell yourself another interpreted story, one where your expectation is not (so much) violated. Basically you are broadening you expectations to take into account how other people might act. They were raised with certain belief systems that are not aligned with yours. You don't know what they are in a heterogeneous society.
You said, "Knowing what’s best for me and doing what’s best for me aren’t the same thing." I would say no; if you really KNOW what is best for you, you will do it. If someone tells you "what is best for you", be it a book or a bible, and by their exquisite logic, you might do it once or twice, BUT YOU DON'T OWN IT. It will be a constant struggle to conform.
You say "if love is making you unhappy". Wow, there is so much confusion about what is love, desire, hormones, security, prestige, convenience, I think I could list dozens of words that sneek under the blanket definition of love. I believe you have to handle each of these components by itself, and not disguised as "love".
OF COURSE, emotions are a combination of a physical feeling and its interpretation (a thought). You talk about "expectations" or you say "predictions", we expect everyone to be like us, at least to follow traffic laws like we attempt to do. But defensive driving means allowing a safety margin around your vehicle. Give others a wide berth, don't follow too close, don't count on others to "save your life", don't go much faster than those around you so that you have breaking time. Most of all, don't be sight-seeing, but watch everyone's moves or potential moves. If you don't do that you can be "angry" with yourself. Predictive models ARE expectations, we need them, but we can also leave them open for a constant update.
Going down the stairs just means holding the rail, or having your hand "cocked" to grab the rail. How can you be angry at a "misplaced brick"?
I don't think you will shout at your boss or family member if there is a system of redress. And maybe there isn't. Then you playing the game of gradually raising the stakes, because that is how society holds that you are finally serious about this one. Too bad society is bent in that way.
If managing emotions means suppressing them (because that other way is so logical), then I see it as all wrong. If you say someone deserves anger, but as a contrarian I am going to give them love instead, well now we are talking about religions imperatives, which haven't changed basic society for 1,000's of years. You can claim it does change things (on the surface), but when push comes to shove, we're back in the same boat.
CBT noticing, depends on the "fed-up-factor". After 100's of repeats, the flash of anger happens before you can notice anything. Somehow there are "techniques that can moderate that feeling". Or, you can be angry but not act it out. (Is that suppression?) Equanimity is not something that you find, it is something that you create. When you realize its value, you are always creating it. Or it just becomes your second nature. It becomes by definition "who you are".
Looking forward to your post on emotional courage.
Once again, you make several important points. I won't be able to address all of them but...On forgiveness being an antidote to "blame" vs. an antidote to anger, I recommend having a look at Nussbaum's book. She has an appendix titled "Anger and Blame." After a review of the philosophical literature on blame, she concludes "...the word 'blame' is very imprecise...empty and uninformative."
On forgiveness being a "vow," the conversation in the forgiveness literature makes a distinction between "decisional forgiveness," the decision to forgive or the "vow" in your words, and "state forgiveness," which is the state of having forgiven. There is discussion about whether decisional forgiveness "counts" as forgiveness even though "state forgiveness" may come and go. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, partly because I don't know what "counts" means in this context.
You write "If you really KNOW what is best for you, you will do it." I know that exercising every day is good for me, but there are days I don't exercise. This reveals to me that there is a deeper understanding of this knowledge that I haven't yet attained. So on one level, I agree with you that if I REALLY knew, I would do it. But on another level, I think it's still accurate to say "I 'know' that exercising every day is good for me." And therefore I'm comfortable saying things like "Knowing what’s best for me and doing what’s best for me aren’t the same thing."
Finally, you write:
"If managing emotions means suppressing them (because that other way is so logical), then I see it as all wrong. If you say someone deserves anger, but as a contrarian I am going to give them love instead, well now we are talking about religions imperatives, which haven't changed basic society for 1,000's of years. You can claim it does change things (on the surface), but when push comes to shove, we're back in the same boat."
I'm inclined to agree with you. But the forgiveness researchers have numerous studies backing up claims that it is, in fact effective. I have reasons for challenging this research conclusion, but it's worth knowing that the research exists.
Once again, thanks for your thoughtful engagement!
Hello Dan, of course I want to answer. It might look like I am a contrarian, but if you were curious, (who is this guy), my second to last post explains that I am attempting to build a site that fosters discussion. Discussion is engagement with the content, and suggesting alternate ways to look at it. I suppose there are many.
First I want to acknowledge you and your focus to be helpful in the conundrums of life. I haven't looked at all of your posts, but the ones I read I really like. Looking back at human history, there were always healers, shamans and medicine men. There was also an "herbal lore" that could cure so many afflictions. Even now there are literally 1,000's of healing modes both physical and mental. One thing to say about them:
THEY ALL WORKED, up to a point.
So if we look at the latest trends on healing (in this case anger management), they have a good success rate. And your reminding people of them is a great service.
___________
Something to say, "learning comes from experience". (It could be another topic to write about). Whatever you get out of a book, if you apply it and test it, then it becomes an experience, and it is a learning. ENGAGEMENT TURNS THEORY INTO EXPERIENCE.
If you don't apply it, but just say "that sounds logical", it will be a constant struggle to get anything out of it.
For instance, if you say that BLAME is such an imprecise word from our research???? $ Billions upon $ Billions are spent on our justice system, who's major occupation is to determine culpability. Forgiveness doesn't even enter into the legal system. It is how you avoid the court case when you don't want to be tied to years of litigation. Settle out of court.
I claim so many conventional remedies are misapplied energy. First take blame (anger) as a given, and then try to relieve it with "forgiveness". And why? Because it is the religious moral teaching that we are trying, (unsuccessfully) to force ourselves to emulate. It is not yet our experience, but only book (bible) learning, that is never "going-in".
But why not look into "Blame" and see what part of it is necessary? Then "forgiveness evaporates as a useless word.
First take STRESS as a given, and then try to relieve it with therapy, entertainment and diversion, vacations and $ billions of misspent effort. OR - Realize stress is self-imposed by our faulty definitions, not directly by our circumstances, and then stress doesn't have to arise, if you can alter those definitions. (I can surely testify to that).
First take ANGER as a given, even justify it as useful in certain cases, and then write books on how to defuse it. Anger is tied to blame, that those other people shouldn't be doing that, (what they do). But why do they do it? They might think that you shouldn't be doing what you do. Or they have beliefs, that they can do what they can "get-away with". Then punishment is an important part of justice.
Same for other maladies, depression, low self-worth, alcohol, drugs, even suicide, (if you dare bring it up). Then the important research can be why do certain unproductive (usually tied to emotions), behaviors arise? And not so much about what to do after they are there. Of course what generates them in this distorted society is a long route, and something must be done in the mean time. Society has resisted caring for the bottom half for a very long time.
Why is there poverty and crime in the ghettos? Because there is no meaningful employment. Why is there no employment? Because the private enterprise (corporate) system does not have employment as a goal. If fact, it wants to reduce employment (with robots or A.I. and off-shoring). So every fix is just another patchwork, that has no chance to make a lasting difference.
I hope that we can discuss things in the future, either on your site or mine. THANKS
Thanks for sharing your article via your note to mine (https://www.carermentor.com/p/how-are-emotions-made). I appreciate the way you've reframed anger here using Dr Barrett's work and proposed forgiveness as its antidote.
If I may, I would reframe your question—'Should emotions be managed?' This implies an expectation, a standard, and a 'hustling' to compartmentalise or shift it. I could almost hear someone saying 'I hate being managed.'
Instead, to paraphrase the work of Dr Susan David and Dr Brené Brown, I'd ask - Can we gently hold ourselves with the emotion, show up to it and make space for it?
Can we be granular and articulate to ourselves what's going on? Every feeling (chemically) lasts around 30-90 seconds in our body - stepping out to breathe through it, can help us get out of the emotional loop.
Then, we may be able to choose our response to navigate through and forward.
I say this knowing we can't always 'catch ourselves' in the moment of big emotions, but I've learnt that it serves me as an aspiration. It also helps me feel I have more agency, and while I can't 'control' or manage how I feel, I can recognise these emotional signposts as data and try to align with my values in my choice of action & move on. My favourite quote that says all this more succinctly!
'Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.'- Viktor E. Frankl
Beautiful! I think the frame of “anger management” only applies when things get really dicey. Otherwise, I’d prefer to find ways to embrace what anger is trying to show me and tend to the anger with love and care. This doesn’t mean fanning anger’s flames. It’s about caring for what’s wounded. And it’s really only possible when there’s the spaciousness you point to of Frankl’s quote.
This was very interesting! I hadn’t read about anger and predictive models — you’ve given me some food for thought!
This was a super interesting and thought-provoking read. It really is true that the physiological reactions can sometimes be the egg that hatches the chicken of increased emotional response. Thank you for this!
The connection between emotions and predictive models is intriguing. I appreciate your openness to various approaches in dealing with anger. Looking forward to your upcoming posts on this fascinating subject!
Internal Family Systems (IFS) frames emotions like anger as reactions a part of us has when an event/interaction either reminds us of a past injury or is perceived as a threat. The part that is angry seeks to protect us from harm, internally or externally. In IFS we are asked to turn toward the anger to see what's going on, not to dismiss it, push it away or gaslight it. Your last paragraph-- your search for a more organic relationship to anger-- made me wonder if IFS might have something to say about forgiveness as well.
Thank you so much for sharing your "not so random" thoughts. Always very interesting, truthful and thought provoking. I look forward to the next installment!
You raise good points here. There is also a subtle difference between forgiveness and mercy which is worth contemplating/ exploring :)
Yes, I know Glennon Doyle was talking about this as well—but although it’s meaningful, and I think it’s a step in the right direction, I think there are still problems.
Both forgiveness and mercy have a kind of hierarchy built into them. In this way, mercy is similar to unconditional forgiveness. Or even, mercy is forgiveness when the conditions for forgiveness have clearly NOT been met—and yet forgiveness is still “granted.” That’s true mercy.
The whole paradigm feels “off” to me. More on this to come in posts.
Yes! All true.
😊 You anticipated where I’m going. IFS is one of the two approaches I’ll be writing about next. I expect that will complete my exploration of psychological insights into anger (for now). Next stop will be religion.
Forgiveness as an antidote to anger?? Is anger that tightly focused, such that a particular forgiving vow can extinguish it? I say "vow" because forgiving thoughts can come and go, and thus what you're attempting to counteract; surely returns. Actually, in some people anger is general. It is the preferred go-to emotion, a panacea for every occasion. Its use is to push everyone away, in that I'm forever fearful of my boundary issues, so I am anti-social. I have jettisoned all interpersonal skills. So where would forgiveness enter the formula there?
Forgiveness is actually the antidote to blame. That is more tightly focused. But you don't forgive blame, you just stop blaming. (Well, I can't stop; everybody saw him do it!) Well, that is the trick to defuse anger, if you can master it. You must tell yourself another interpreted story, one where your expectation is not (so much) violated. Basically you are broadening you expectations to take into account how other people might act. They were raised with certain belief systems that are not aligned with yours. You don't know what they are in a heterogeneous society.
You said, "Knowing what’s best for me and doing what’s best for me aren’t the same thing." I would say no; if you really KNOW what is best for you, you will do it. If someone tells you "what is best for you", be it a book or a bible, and by their exquisite logic, you might do it once or twice, BUT YOU DON'T OWN IT. It will be a constant struggle to conform.
You say "if love is making you unhappy". Wow, there is so much confusion about what is love, desire, hormones, security, prestige, convenience, I think I could list dozens of words that sneek under the blanket definition of love. I believe you have to handle each of these components by itself, and not disguised as "love".
OF COURSE, emotions are a combination of a physical feeling and its interpretation (a thought). You talk about "expectations" or you say "predictions", we expect everyone to be like us, at least to follow traffic laws like we attempt to do. But defensive driving means allowing a safety margin around your vehicle. Give others a wide berth, don't follow too close, don't count on others to "save your life", don't go much faster than those around you so that you have breaking time. Most of all, don't be sight-seeing, but watch everyone's moves or potential moves. If you don't do that you can be "angry" with yourself. Predictive models ARE expectations, we need them, but we can also leave them open for a constant update.
Going down the stairs just means holding the rail, or having your hand "cocked" to grab the rail. How can you be angry at a "misplaced brick"?
I don't think you will shout at your boss or family member if there is a system of redress. And maybe there isn't. Then you playing the game of gradually raising the stakes, because that is how society holds that you are finally serious about this one. Too bad society is bent in that way.
If managing emotions means suppressing them (because that other way is so logical), then I see it as all wrong. If you say someone deserves anger, but as a contrarian I am going to give them love instead, well now we are talking about religions imperatives, which haven't changed basic society for 1,000's of years. You can claim it does change things (on the surface), but when push comes to shove, we're back in the same boat.
CBT noticing, depends on the "fed-up-factor". After 100's of repeats, the flash of anger happens before you can notice anything. Somehow there are "techniques that can moderate that feeling". Or, you can be angry but not act it out. (Is that suppression?) Equanimity is not something that you find, it is something that you create. When you realize its value, you are always creating it. Or it just becomes your second nature. It becomes by definition "who you are".
Looking forward to your post on emotional courage.
.
Once again, you make several important points. I won't be able to address all of them but...On forgiveness being an antidote to "blame" vs. an antidote to anger, I recommend having a look at Nussbaum's book. She has an appendix titled "Anger and Blame." After a review of the philosophical literature on blame, she concludes "...the word 'blame' is very imprecise...empty and uninformative."
On forgiveness being a "vow," the conversation in the forgiveness literature makes a distinction between "decisional forgiveness," the decision to forgive or the "vow" in your words, and "state forgiveness," which is the state of having forgiven. There is discussion about whether decisional forgiveness "counts" as forgiveness even though "state forgiveness" may come and go. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, partly because I don't know what "counts" means in this context.
You write "If you really KNOW what is best for you, you will do it." I know that exercising every day is good for me, but there are days I don't exercise. This reveals to me that there is a deeper understanding of this knowledge that I haven't yet attained. So on one level, I agree with you that if I REALLY knew, I would do it. But on another level, I think it's still accurate to say "I 'know' that exercising every day is good for me." And therefore I'm comfortable saying things like "Knowing what’s best for me and doing what’s best for me aren’t the same thing."
Finally, you write:
"If managing emotions means suppressing them (because that other way is so logical), then I see it as all wrong. If you say someone deserves anger, but as a contrarian I am going to give them love instead, well now we are talking about religions imperatives, which haven't changed basic society for 1,000's of years. You can claim it does change things (on the surface), but when push comes to shove, we're back in the same boat."
I'm inclined to agree with you. But the forgiveness researchers have numerous studies backing up claims that it is, in fact effective. I have reasons for challenging this research conclusion, but it's worth knowing that the research exists.
Once again, thanks for your thoughtful engagement!
Hello Dan, of course I want to answer. It might look like I am a contrarian, but if you were curious, (who is this guy), my second to last post explains that I am attempting to build a site that fosters discussion. Discussion is engagement with the content, and suggesting alternate ways to look at it. I suppose there are many.
First I want to acknowledge you and your focus to be helpful in the conundrums of life. I haven't looked at all of your posts, but the ones I read I really like. Looking back at human history, there were always healers, shamans and medicine men. There was also an "herbal lore" that could cure so many afflictions. Even now there are literally 1,000's of healing modes both physical and mental. One thing to say about them:
THEY ALL WORKED, up to a point.
So if we look at the latest trends on healing (in this case anger management), they have a good success rate. And your reminding people of them is a great service.
___________
Something to say, "learning comes from experience". (It could be another topic to write about). Whatever you get out of a book, if you apply it and test it, then it becomes an experience, and it is a learning. ENGAGEMENT TURNS THEORY INTO EXPERIENCE.
If you don't apply it, but just say "that sounds logical", it will be a constant struggle to get anything out of it.
For instance, if you say that BLAME is such an imprecise word from our research???? $ Billions upon $ Billions are spent on our justice system, who's major occupation is to determine culpability. Forgiveness doesn't even enter into the legal system. It is how you avoid the court case when you don't want to be tied to years of litigation. Settle out of court.
I claim so many conventional remedies are misapplied energy. First take blame (anger) as a given, and then try to relieve it with "forgiveness". And why? Because it is the religious moral teaching that we are trying, (unsuccessfully) to force ourselves to emulate. It is not yet our experience, but only book (bible) learning, that is never "going-in".
But why not look into "Blame" and see what part of it is necessary? Then "forgiveness evaporates as a useless word.
First take STRESS as a given, and then try to relieve it with therapy, entertainment and diversion, vacations and $ billions of misspent effort. OR - Realize stress is self-imposed by our faulty definitions, not directly by our circumstances, and then stress doesn't have to arise, if you can alter those definitions. (I can surely testify to that).
First take ANGER as a given, even justify it as useful in certain cases, and then write books on how to defuse it. Anger is tied to blame, that those other people shouldn't be doing that, (what they do). But why do they do it? They might think that you shouldn't be doing what you do. Or they have beliefs, that they can do what they can "get-away with". Then punishment is an important part of justice.
Same for other maladies, depression, low self-worth, alcohol, drugs, even suicide, (if you dare bring it up). Then the important research can be why do certain unproductive (usually tied to emotions), behaviors arise? And not so much about what to do after they are there. Of course what generates them in this distorted society is a long route, and something must be done in the mean time. Society has resisted caring for the bottom half for a very long time.
Why is there poverty and crime in the ghettos? Because there is no meaningful employment. Why is there no employment? Because the private enterprise (corporate) system does not have employment as a goal. If fact, it wants to reduce employment (with robots or A.I. and off-shoring). So every fix is just another patchwork, that has no chance to make a lasting difference.
I hope that we can discuss things in the future, either on your site or mine. THANKS
.